“ Eileen Chubb and Linda Clark had prepared flip charts of information, my recollection is that one sheet referred to staff, which units they worked on at Isard and who was friends with who, the other introduced a small number of residents. They explained that they wanted me to be able to understand some of the background at the home and how people were connected. After that it was everyone wanting to chip in with their individual incidents”

“ The meeting which lasted two hours was not acrimonious but was emotionally charged, the meeting was not at all structured and they were times when it was impossible to absorb everything that was being said as several people were speaking at once infact this became increasingly difficult as the meeting progressed”

“ In the meeting I do recall Eileen Chubb making references to the fact that she had been pushed in the back by another member of staff I do not remember her expanding on this or telling me who was supposed to have done this< I do not recall any other member of staff making any specific allegations of harassment against them”

“ On the basis of their discussion at the meeting I had no impression what so ever that the staff would not be returning to work, I did not know the reasons they had given for being of sick at that time”

CROSS EXAMINATION OF DES KELLY BY COUNSEL FOR THE BUPA SEVEN

Q. When were you first informed there was a problem at Isard Hs?

K. I was informed by Carole Newton on April 20th 1999.

Q. Did you go to Isard Hs?

K. No then, I visited on April 22nd and spoke informally to staff it was decided that Carole Newton should stay at the home.

Q. Did Carole Newton inform you of the meeting that took place on May 5th with herself, Eileen Chubb, R.Turner and Monica Handscomb?

K. Yes she said it was a very distressing meeting and I asked her to provide me with a written file note.

Q. So you saw her notes of this meeting?

K. Yes.

Q. What did you make of them?

K. I thought E Chubb seemed very distressed.

Q. The meeting of May 12th did you see those notes?

K. Yes.

Q. What did you make off the words “ We feel isolated and alone and feel threatened because we spoke out”?

K. I thought it was E. Chubb who was distressed.

Q. Did it not occur to you that E. Chubb was asking for help as she was clearly being harassed?

K. No it did not seem that way to me.

Q. The meeting of May 14th, you were meeting with all seven staff?

K. No, only E. Chubb and L. Clark only two.

Q. But you met with all seven?

K. Yes.

Q. Mr Turner from Social Services was at this meeting also?

K. Yes.

Q. Mr Turner gave evidence that this meeting was very structured and the applicants were very professional?

K. My recollection is everyone was talking at once.

Q. Did the applicants tell you they were being harassed?

K. No they did not, I recall E. Chubb saying she had been pushed in the back.

Q. Why would she come out with that if harassment was not the subject being discussed?

K. They were all talking at once as I said.

Q. As an experienced manager you must have come across abuse before?

K. Yes I have.

Q. You must have been aware therefore that harassment of Whistle-Blowers can be a real problem?

K. Yes I am aware that can happen.

Q. Did you not think it could be happening in this case?

K. I had not seen any indication of this, one might feel isolated but I do not think seven could.

Q. But harassment of Whistle-Blowers is a real danger in such cases you just agreed?

K. I was aware yes.

Q. I need you to be very clear on this point, Social Services would not be responsible for investigating harassment, would they?

K. No it would not be their responsibility.

Q. So if you received complaints of harassment, it is you who should have investigated?

K. That is correct.

Q. And I need you to be clear on this point also, at any time has there ever been an investigation into the harassment the applicants reported?

K. There has been no investigation, no.

Q. At any time?

K. No, never.

Q. please look at bundle 1, page 354, were you aware of this letter dated December 99, did you advise your legal department?

K. The first letter I received from Stephens innocents ( Solicitors) I dealt with it until August 99.

Q. It says here BUPA will put up a notice to staff, it appears to be about victimisation?

K. I don’t know.

Q. Did you ever consider taking any action on the harassment?

K. I had no opportunity, I thought we should see the seven separately.

Q. Why separately?

K. Because of my experience of them as a group.

Q. Your account of the meeting of May 14th with the applicants and Mr Turners account of this meeting are totally contradictory, Mr Turner made notes and he says the applicants spoke one at a time and were very professional?

K. My recollection is people were crying.

Q. Do go on?

K. They did a presentation and then it developed into everyone talking at once.

Q. You took notes?

K. No.

Q. Very odd?

K. Yes I suppose but I thought only two were coming.

Q. But if you only thought two were coming you would still have gone prepared?

K. I felt set up, the way the meeting was done, I thought I was only meeting two staff, not seven with a presentation, I was listening but took no notes, that is because of the way it was done.

Q. Even if you thought only two were coming you would still have gone prepared?

K. Social Services were doing the investigation, I could not investigate.

Q. I am not talking about the abuse but the harassment, look at R. Turners statement, paragraph 30, “ I think the meeting was very constructive” ?

K. Its not what I recall, I recall a lot of emotion.

Q. Why should there not be some emotion in the circumstances?

K. There were all talking at once.

Q. not according to Richard Turner?

K. Its what I recollect.

Q. Paragraph 31 of Mr Turners statement?

K. I do not recall saying we would have any further meetings.

Q. Paragraph 33 of Richard Turners statement?

K. I do not recall saying that.

Q. Turn to statement of Renee Warwick, paragraph 44,?

K. I do not recall that, only E. Chubb being pushed.

Q. When Eileen Chubb told she had been hit with a chair?

K. Yes.

Q. That’s a serious assault on a member of staff?

K. She said it during other things it got missed in the meeting.

Q. Such as other examples of harassment?

K. No I only remember that.

Q. Carole Newton said you asked her to walk around the home?

K. I just thought staff moral might be affected by the impact of the investigation.

Q. Did Carole Jones or Carole Newton tell you about a list of names?

K. I did hear about it, I spoke to Carole Jones about the need not to speculate.

Q. So you were aware that the complainants had been identified?

K. I really can not remember.

Q. Did this not raise a single doubt in your mind that the complainants might be victimised?

K. Its difficult to say now, events have moved so fast there was speculation from the out set.

Q. But it was not a concern?

K. There was bound to be speculation with so many staff.

Q. It appears that the investigation mattered to staff who were angry about it at the time?

K. Yes.

Q. Were you aware of staff anger?

K. When I spoke to staff on May 19th there seemed to be and also fear over losing their jobs.

Q. Look at Lee Elkins statement, paragraph 72 and 73, “ I told Mr Kelly about Carole Newton”

K. He may have said that.

Q. The next paragraph?

K. I do not agree with that.

Q. and 76?

K. Maybe

Q. What about 77?

K. I find this curious, they may have been of sick, we had no discussion about them being of sick.

Q. Did they tell you they were sick?

K. I must have known they were sick but I can not recollect how I knew.

Q. Did you not form the view that it was odd, all seven staff of sick at once?

K. Yes it was unusual.

Q. Did you not try to find out why they were all sick?

K. I thought the meeting was about abuse.

Q. Did you think they had all gone sick and that it was a concocted illness?

K. I do not know what I thought at the time, I spoke to H.R I was not thinking they would leave.

Q. What was behind them being off sick?

K. I did not know at the time.

Q. what about later?

K. It moved too quickly, they never said to me only Eileen Chubb about the chair incident.

Q. Look at Karen Hooks statement paragraph 76?

K. They were making serious allegations.

Q. Look at E. Chubb’s statement paragraphs 79 to 81?

K. yes so far.

Q. The staff chart given to you by the applicants was about harassment?

K. I did take the chart away with me, I cant remember what it was about, something about abusers who were problem staff.

Q. Lets look at this chart, it clearly shows two groups of staff, the abusers who were reported and the different colour stickers identifying the staff who were involved in the harassment, what did you take problem staff to mean at the time?

K. Those who were involved in abusing residents.

Q. look again at 738 and 739 two very separate groups of staff, no allegations of abuse had been made against those called problem staff or they would have been suspended and you would have been aware of that fact?

K. I thought the chart was dealing with abusers that is my recollection.

Q. It was quite clear that all the staff involved in the harassment have been clearly identified as a separate group from the abusers?

K. I can not explain that.

Q. Connect staff would have been helpful information to have during an investigation into harassment, staff who were related by marriage or relationships?

K. It is not my recollection that an investigation was the aim of the chart being given.

Q. Were those connected staff supporting each other and harassing the complainants?

K. That was not implied.

Q. Why give a chart of two different groups of staff and how they were connected, why go to all the trouble of making such a chart?

K. I really can not say.

Q. Lets now look at the council minutes of May 13th the day before you met with the applicants, they stae you first read through the inquiry report?

K. I think so yes.

Q. Page 119, states “ Des Kelly said its complicated because of the two Marias, Carole Jones response was indeed inadequate “is this correct?

K. I could not say for certain, I did not know before about the two Maria,s the report was all I had to go on.

Q. The top of page 4 Des says “ We can all make mistakes”, Maria was not telling the truth?

K. It sounds like what I might have said.

Q. It also says here Des Kelly was surprised about Carole Jones not having experience?

K. Yes I said that, but registration said Carole Jones could be registered as a home manager, I have never come across any one running a care home with no experience.

Q. What about the size of this home?

K. It’s the largest home in the partnership.

Q. It also says here Des Said “ There are two groups of staff, I cant satisfy both”?

K. I do not know I did not know about the two groups of staff, I do not understand how I could have known that.

Q. The Council Clerk who took these minute down has no reason to make things up do you agree?

K. Yes but I do not know how I could have said that.

Q. Maybe the file notes of the Carol Newton meetings with Eileen Chubb could explain how you came to know this on the 13th of May?

K. No

Q. So you are saying that this meeting took place on May 13th with Social Services, at Bromley Civic Centre and at which minutes were taken by the Council Clerk stating you knew there were two groups of staff and yet you say you did not know this and could not have said it?

K. I can not have known.

Q. But Carole Newton gave you file notes you have stated this in your evidence and these notes clearly show Eileen Chubb saying they felt threatened?

K. No .

Q. You knew at this meeting on May 13th?

K. No

Q. Turn over the page, the council minutes continue with Des Say “ As soon as the legal team come into this it will not matter was has gone on, They will go all defensive”?

K. True in parts, the main recommendations in the report was the home should be reregistered which the legal department would have become involved in.

Q. so what you are saying is that you agree with the Clarks minutes taken at that meeting with the exception of the bits about you knowing there were two groups of staff, which was a strong indication of harassment?

K. I just can not recall knowing that.

Q. That’s convenient! Lets now go to Elizabeth Martins statement, Paragraph 31, is that right?

K. I have no recollection and I would not need to look at my watch, no one said anything about harassment except E. Chubb.

Q. So are you saying that only E. Chubb referred to harassment?

K. Yes.

Q. Look at Bundle 1, page 399, a letter from Arthur Walford to the applicants solicitors, that’s not what’s being said her he is saying “ That all the applicants made references to harassment in their meeting with you”?

K. I can only speak from my own recollection.

Q. Where did Arthur Walford get the information in order to send this letter?

K. I must have given a report of the meeting to our legal Department.

Q. So they would have relied on your report of the meeting?

K. Yes.

Q. But this letter states all seven applicants made reference to harassment?

K. I do not recall that.

Q. Well then, can you explain how else Arthur walford could have obtained this information?

K. No I can not.

Q. Do you have a Whistle Blowing procedure?

K. No then we have one now.

Q. What does it say about going out side the home for help?

K. It says if management do not act you may go outside.

Q. So now you can go outside the home?

K Yes.

Q. Regarding page 203, did you take notes?

K. No it was a general discussion.

Q. There is reference in the Clarks minutes of May 13th that you were meeting with all seven?

K. Well I have my doubts that I said that.

Q. But you have agreed with the rest of the minutes?

K. I do not understand how I could have said that.

Q. Is it possible?

K. No I don’t think it is. I know now it was E. Chubb and K. Hook and not L. Clark.

Q. Turn to your statement paragraphs 40 to 41, the management approach was to support Carole Jones the manager?

K. I supported the home and the manager yes.

Q. The thought why did the applicants all go sick, never occurred to you?

K. I rang H.R

Q. Could you look at Carol Jones statement paragraphs 103, regarding chocolates for the staff and Mr Kelly visited that day, do you agree with what Maria Green says here, that if the applicants go back, the staff would rebel?

K. Was that in August?

Q. Were you ever alive to that possibility?

K. I was alive to the fact that they could be placed in other homes on their return to work.

Q. Why should the seven be placed in other homes, there was no investigation into harassment or even the possibility of such?

K. I do not recollect the exact circumstances.

Q. Those accused of abuse were all on full pay, while the applicants were only receiving sick pay?

K. We fulfilled our contractual obligations, they would not meet on a one to one basis.

Q. The applicants were always quite willing to meet as a group why would H.R not meet with them as a group?

K. Having met with them as a group I formed the view that it would not be suitable.

Q. Did you ever review that decision?

K. There was only one further time they would meet.

Q. N. Tittringham says she was just the note taker, you were the manager responsible?

K. Yes that’s right, the company behaves as any other large company, we are not experts.

Q. But this is an important situation?

K. I was not spending day to day time on it.

Q. Did you know about the Arthur Walford letter regarding the one to one meetings?

K. They asked me to advise on the letter that had been sent to Sir Brian Nickolson.

Q. So were you told about the reply that was sent regarding one to one meetings?

K. I would have been aware of it.

Q. What’s been said here is the applicants are willing to meet as a group?

K. I do not think I would have changed my mind, it was out of my hands, H.R were dealing with it.

Q. But Richard Turners view of this group is a total contradiction of yours?

K. I do not know why they were so suspicious of meeting one to one.

Q. But the decision not to meet with the applicants as a group was a decision taken as the direct result of your advice?

K. I was not dealing with this, I never said it was not safe to return to the home.

Q. At any time from receiving the first inquiry report did you make any complaints about Mr Turners investigation?

K. There is this letter.

Q. No, I mean before you knew Mr Turner was giving evidence to this Tribunal which reflects badly on you?

K. No.

Q. Look at R. Turners letter, B4, page 272 and at 273, Mr Turner returns to this he says” I stated Maria Keenahan should not be working, I made it quite clear to Mr Kelly, did he say that to you?

K. Yes he did.

Q. At 243, “ Keep Maria Keenahan suspended our concerns are extensive, you will have all the information, Maria Keenahan was involved in the abuse, her care practices are subject, I pass this matter to our solicitors” R. Turner says he knew nothing about Faircroft?

K. I do not think there is much difference between Mr Turners view and mine, I accept it was not suitable, I accept the company can be criticised for not telling Social Services, not for placing Maria Keenahan in another home, we should have told them.

Q. But Mr Turner clearly states here she should not be working?

K. He is only saying that now.

Q. Going back to page 244 B4, Maria Keenahan is not suitable, it seems very clear?

K. Maria Keenahan is not suitable for the teamleader pending police report.

Q. But Mr Turner clearly is quite shocked she is working at Faircroft?

K. I accept there is a difference of opinion between Mr Turner and myself but he escalates the fact that she should not work with the elderly, it was only in December we were told of his feelings regarding Maria Keenahan, it was up to us we were her employers.

Q. You agree in August 1999, she should not be working?

K. But we did not place her in a contracted out home.

Q. That has nothing to do with this an abuser is a risk to residents in any home?

K. I can only repeat what I said.

Q. Are you familiar with M.A.R sheets?

K. Sue Greenwood dealt with that aspect.

Q. But her report on the medication in no way resembles the independent Pharmacists report?

K. The pharmacists report does not say this was deliberate, I relied on Sue Greenwoods report.

Q. Lets look at your interview notes from your meeting with Maria Keenahan, this interview seems to be investigating Eileen Chubb, also on the next page, you are asking her why Eileen Chubb, would complain and how were the other staff with Eileen Chubb, this was all about E. Chubb and not the abuse?

K. It was just part of the decision.

Q. It looks to me it was Eileen Chubb you were investigating and not Maria Keenahan at all?

K. It was what I said.

Q. No withholding of medication was put to Maria Keenahan at all?

K. yes that’s right.

Q. Nothing from the independent pharmacists report was put to her?

K. We relied on the Sue Greenwood report.

Q. The one that found nothing wrong, I see, look at 354 to 355, the letter of December 1st 99, “ a full and proper investigation has been carried out at Isard Hs “?

K. I assume that’s what it means.

Q. Look at Richard Turners statement, paragraph 46 to 47?

K. We made a recommendation they said she could not be a teamleader.

Q. Look at B, pages 243 and 244, a letter sent to you from Social Services on September 6th 99, it says “ I stopped her working at Anne Sutherland Hs, the return of Maria Keenahan to any care home would become a matter for our legal Department” did you agree with this?

K. responsibilities we had with contracted out homes did not apply to Faircroft, the inquiry report said just she could not work with E.M.I residents this letter implies other then this.

Q. What type of residents are cared for at Faircroft?

K. Its not a contracted out home.

Q. What type of residents are cared for at Faircroft, Mr Kelly?

K. EMI

Q. You took no disciplinary action against Maria Keenahan what so ever?

K. That is correct.

Q. Look at the notes on Maria Keenahans investigation interview with yourself, then compare those to the inquiry draft report you were inpossession of at the time?

K. Yes.

Q. What I do not understand is it sets out detailed physical and verbal abuse, why was none of this put to her?

K. None of these are attributed to any body.

Q. I still do not understand why she was not asked about any of them?

K. At the time we only had the reports, we asked for witness statements.

Q. Why did you not ask her about the abuse?

K. We were discussing other matters.

Q. Yet you formed the view there was nothing to discipline her on?

K. That is correct.

Q. Look at the list of medication abuse, why did you not ask her about this?

K. We asked her about her medication practices, we had sue Greenwoods report, she admitted not following policy.

Q. Let me make sure I understand you correctly, you used an internal drugs audit to base your questions to Maria Keenahan on, when this same drug audit said there was nothing wrong?

K. We dealt with the medication practices at length.

Q. Look at page 173, Maria Keenahan says “ I judge what dosage E.P should be given, I told the management about this” she tells you this?

K. We did not have the same level of understanding on the M.A.R sheets we have now.

Q. She is telling you she’s prescribing the dose?

K. Well that’s not unusual, it could be the GPs incompetence.

Q. Did you ask the G.P if Maria Keenahan had ever rung him?

K No I did not.

Q. Maria Keenahan is not pressed at all on her answers, you just accepted what she said?

K. When you put it like that, but these notes are just a summary, its all I have to go on, there was a later investigation which also reached the same conclusion as me.

Q. But that was after the first Tribunal hearing of this case?

K. That is right.

Q. You were considering moving the applicants to other homes?

K. That is correct.

Q. Was that a recognition it was not safe for them to return to Isard Hs?

K. They would maybe have faced a reaction relationships had become strained.

Q. But that amounts to staff in the building thinking it was the seven who had done something wrong?

K. The allegations they made referred to only abuse.

Q. Look at the letter from the applicants solicitors, dated June 7th 99, did this letter leave you in any doubt the applicants had been harassed?

K. This letter came as a surprise, there was no harassment, only E. Chubb being pushed.

Q. This letter details harassment and asks for a safe working environment?

K. Yes I wrote back.

Q. Yes and that letter is on page 332, your immediate response is “ The company does not accept liability” no investigation takes place, why adopt this position?

K. Because the applicants did not tell me about any harassment.

Q. But there was another way to respond, we will have an investigation and keep an open mind?

K. Yes.

Q. but you are having no truck with these allegations either?

K. We had allegations of abuse, the harassment allegations came after.

Q. Look at page 330, the applicants were suffering serious financial hardship, yet this remained the company’s position?

K. I can see their dilemma.

QUESTIONS FROM THE TIBUNAL BENCH.
Mrs R Greenman.

Q. The meeting of May 14th, did you ask the applicants why they were off sick?

K. I thought it would only be a meeting with two, because of the nature of the meeting I felt I could not pursue why they had gone sick.

Q. But seven staff all going sick and yet you did not ask them why?

K. I did not think it appropriate to ask them.

Q. That’s what worries me?

K I just did not think to ask them.

Q. You never wrote to them at any time?

K. No

Q. Surly its normal to write to someone after such a meeting?

K. I contacted H.R.

Q. But it was you who met with the applicants should you not have written to them?

K. I left it to H.R.

QUESTION FROM MR ZUKE,BENCH

Q. Could you look at bundle4 the notes of the interview with Carol Jones, you ask her if their evidence of a assault, is this an accurate note?

K. Yes.

CROSS EXAMINATION OF CAROLE NEWTON ( BUPA)

Q. After the abuse was reported, you were asked by Carole Jones to speak to Eileen Chubb about her behaviour?

N. Yes I rang E. Chubb and she hung up on me, I went to see her at the home the next day, I asked her to come upstairs with me.

Q. Eileen Chubb says you were harassing her and that you followed her around the unit?

N. No I just wanted to speak to her.

Q. Did you know Eileen Chubb was one of the Whistle- Blowers?

N. Yes I suspected this, I told Des Kelly I thought she was.

Q. You attended a meeting that evening with Eileen Chubb, Monica Handscomb and R. Turner?

N. Yes it was very strange, E Chubb walked into the room and said this women is harassing me.

Q. So E. Chubb told you she was being harassed?

N. I thought she was distressed and should go home.

Q. What did you do about the allegations of harassment?

N. I rung H.R and arranged for a meeting to take place and for E. Chubb to take a few days off work.

Q. This meeting took place with Claire Porter, Eileen Chubb, Linda Clark and yourself?

N. Yes.

Q. These are your notes of that meeting, they state Eileen Chubb, said “ They were isolated and alone, felt threatened for speaking out and were working in appalling conditions”?

N. They just wanted a platform to air their grievances.

Q. Earlier meeting, what did Eileen Chubb say about Carole Jones?

N. She said she was responsible for the abuse of residents.

Q. What did you do about this?

N. I asked Social Services if I should suspend Carole Jones.

Q. Look at B4, Anne Davidson was made a teamleader on unit 2, E Chubb had not yet resigned from that post?

N. It was just a temporary contract.

Q. Was Carole Jones angry with Eileen Chubb and the others?

N. Yes she was.

Q. It appears to me that you would have suspended Eileen Chubb if she were not one of the Whistle-Blowers?

N. Yes.

Q. So prior to speaking with Eileen Chubb, you discussed with Mr Kelly suspending Eileen Chubb?

N. Yes

Q. On Carole Jones version of events only?

N. Yes.

Q. Would you not suspend Eileen Chubb and Carole Jones pending an investigation?

N. Eileen Chubb’s behaviour was causing problems.

CROSS EXAMINATION OF NICOLA FOSKETT(BUPA H.R)

Q. Paragraph 3 of your statement, Ms Tittringham ( Head of BUPA Hr) had concerns they were not really sick, did you ask Ms Tittringham what she meant by this?

F. No I was going to ask the applicants.

Q. Paragraph 6 of your statement, “the first 3 were very polite” you spoke to all seven?

F. I think so.

Q. You think so, are you sure you spoke to all seven

F. Yes.

Q. Four of the applicants say they were not at home and never received a call from you?

F. I am sure.

Q. can you remember who the first three were?

F. No I cant.

Q. You made one call after another?

F Yes.

Q. You suggested there was collusion?

F. Yes.

Q. You think they rang each other?

F. Yes.

Q. Were any of the numbers engaged when you rang?

F. I can not recall.

Q. Did you take a note?

F. I did not keep it no one said.

Q. Paragraph 6, they said they would meet with you, so where’s the notes?

F. I kept it then, I haven’t got it now.

CROSS EXAMINATION N. TITTRINGHAM ( BUPA HEAD OF HR)

Q. We just heard miss fosketts say that all seven staff were sick but that you did not believe they were really sick?

T. Yes.

Q. Did you think they had gone sick due to the harassment?

T No.

Q. Why did you think they were not really sick then?

T. That is what Mr Kelly told me.

Q. Why would seven staff all go sick and not be sick?

T. Mr Kelly said he did not think they were really sick.

Q. You have seen the medical reports on the applicants, do you accept now, they were genuinely sick?

T Yes.

Q. Did Mr Kelly tell you about the harassment?

T. No he did not.

Q. do you know about these notes from Claire Porters ( BUPA HR) with Eileen Chubb?

T. No.

Q. You have not seen these notes before?

T. No

Q. These are the notes of Carole Newton taken at the meeting with Eileen Chubb and your own Claire Porter from H.R, what do you make of the words “ We have been isolated and are alone, feel threatened because we spoke out”?

T. She was just expressing how she felt.

Q. Its quite clear Eileen Chubb is raising concerns of harassment, is she not?

T. Yes.

Q. Lets look at the notes taken at Maria Greens and Des Kelly’s interview, you took these notes?

T. Yes.

Q. Maria Green says “ If any of the seven go back, the staff will rebel”?

T. That’s just her view.

Q. The seven could not return to work, was that not a concern?

T. I was just taking notes.

Q. The applicants solicitors letter regarding meeting with the seven, they cannot go alone?

T. Des Kelly informed me that this meeting with a group did not work.

Q. You were asked to meet with the group?

T. Its always better to meet one to one.

Q. Did you know the applicants were having group counselling?

T. No I did not.

QUESTIONS FROM THE BENCH.

Q. Why did you decide not to meet the applicants as a group?

T. Its not unusual.

Q. Did you discuss it with Mr Kelly?

T. Yes.

Q. What did Mr Kelly tell you about May the 14th meeting?

T. He said they were unruly.

Q. If Mr Kelly had told you there had been harassment, what steps would have been taken?

T. There would be an investigation.

CROSS EXAMINATION OF CLAIR PORTER( BUPA HR)

Q. You met with Eileen Chubb did you not?

P. Yes in May 99, I was asked to come to Isard Hs by Carole Newton and speak with Eileen Chubb as she was not communication with the Home Manager.

Q. How long have you worked in HR?

P. I worked in BUPA international H.R for about five years.

Q. How much experience in BUPA Care Services HR?

P. I transferred to the Care division in Jan 99.

Q. So you only had five month’s experience in Care division, would this enable you to deal with abuse in a care home?

P. I know about HR procedures, I don’t know about complaints of abuse.

Q. Would Harassment being reported to you have resulted in a investigation?

P. Yes it would.

Q. Eileen Chubb told you at this meeting she was being harassed did she not?

P. I was not told that no.

Q. I would ask you to look at Carole Newtons notes of the meeting, it clearly states here, Eileen Chubb telling you “They were isolated, and alone feel threatened, would this not give you cause for concern?

P. I do not recall that being said.

Q. But according to Carole Newton, who was present and took these notes, this is what Eileen Chubb told you.

P. I have no recollection.

Q. You say in your statement meeting with Eileen Chubb and Linda Clark, was intimidating?

P. Yes.

Q. Did you ever make a complaint?

P. No.

Q. If the meeting was intimidating why did you not make a complaint?

P. I did not make a complaint.

Q. Did you know anything about the build up to this meeting?

P. No, only that E. Chubb was not in communication with the manager.

Q. Paragraph 9 of your statement, did you mistake emotion for aggression?

P. I can not see no reason for emotion.